tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34421675.post115914546256335783..comments2023-10-12T10:09:30.431-04:00Comments on Kingdom Advancing: Hell, Part 3Kingdom Advancerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02599920276578327720noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34421675.post-1160262666353910582006-10-07T19:11:00.000-04:002006-10-07T19:11:00.000-04:00Paul was quoting the Septaugint, which was in Gree...Paul was quoting the Septaugint, which was in Greek. He didn't change <I>sheol</I> to <I>hades</I> at all - he simply quoted the Septuagint, which had already rendered <I>sheol</I> as <I>hades</I>. I hope that clears it up.Austinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14883196263628974118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34421675.post-1159405259007690352006-09-27T21:00:00.000-04:002006-09-27T21:00:00.000-04:00As I said, Austin, I have determined that Hades mu...As I said, Austin, I have determined that Hades must be the base--the foundation of where people went (or go). It's their grave. It's their death. But clearly, the righteous and wicked don't have the same experience in this place--if it's an actual place at all. <BR/><BR/>What I meant about Paul using Hades is that, the New Testament isn't afraid to use Hebrew words. Rabbi is the only one off the top of my head, but "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani," Jesus' "why have You forsaken me" cry on the cross, is ARAMAIC. So, when the New Testament writers (and English translators) were working on the Bible, they clearly saw the appropriateness of leaving in some elements from other languages, especially Hebrew. And after all, Paul was a Jew, so, if He was quoting the Old Testament, you would think He would quote it in the original Hebrew (although there were both Greek and Hebrew versions at that point.) <BR/><BR/>As far as deserving eternal punishment, that is what I'll address in my next post. But here's something for you to think about: <BR/>"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." (Romans 1:20) <BR/>And: <BR/>"There is none who does good, no, not one." (Jesus said this in retort to the rich man who called him "good teacher.") <BR/><BR/>When I said "the best person not going to heaven," I said it jokingly. Some, however, who keep a lot of the Law (perhaps Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims, and Jews who don't accept the Messiah), will not be saved. They will be headed to hell just like the dirtiest of sinners. I think there's a verse in the Bible that says even their good deeds are an abomination to God, because they do it for the wrong reasons, with the wrong beliefs, and without a true relationship with God.Kingdom Advancerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02599920276578327720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34421675.post-1159385190239012242006-09-27T15:26:00.000-04:002006-09-27T15:26:00.000-04:003 comments in a row! Why stop now?I did some rese...3 comments in a row! Why stop now?<BR/><BR/>I did some research on the Greek concept of hades, which was later employed by Christians. <BR/><BR/>For one thing, in Greek mythology, all souls went to hades, not just good or bad.<BR/><BR/>Hades was believed by the Greeks to have several sections. One was the Elysian Fields (similar to Lazarus' comfort zone), and another was Tartarus (Peter describes it as the prison of the fallen angels. The unsaved my be there as well). <BR/><BR/>The Bible seems to suggest that maybe Jesus took many of the souls in hades to Paradise, which was in the heavens. So now only the unsaved remain in hades, but in any case, it wasn't that way from the beginning. And the righteous were never tormented there, though there may have been some brief judgment - there's debate about this among Jewish scholars, and there was debate about it in Jesus' time as well). <BR/><BR/>I'm working on studying the Hebrew ideas of the 7 heavens and the 7 hells. I'll let you know when I find something worth noting.Austinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14883196263628974118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34421675.post-1159383455340280622006-09-27T14:57:00.000-04:002006-09-27T14:57:00.000-04:00Kingdom Advancer,Paul doesn't use sheol because it...Kingdom Advancer,<BR/><BR/>Paul doesn't use sheol because it doesn't exist in Greek. Their word is hades which means the same thing: the unseen world of dead souls. <BR/><BR/>If I'm translating a Spanish book into English, and the book is about a dog, I don't leave the word "perro" in, simply because that's what the original auther used. I change it to the English word for Spanish "perro," which is "dog". Perro is to dog as sheol is to hades. <BR/><BR/>You wanted to know why Jesus used hades for the rich man's destination instead of gehenna. For one thing, gehenna was a physical place that Jesus used for dramatic effect, or so I think. <BR/><BR/>More importantly though, he didn't use gehenna because both the rich man and Lazarus were in hades. Lazarus was in the comfort zone of hades, separated by a great chasm from the torment zone where the rich man was. The verse says:<BR/><BR/>"and in the hades having lifted up his eyes, being in torments, he doth see Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom,"<BR/>-Luke 16:23 (YLT)<BR/><BR/>It doesn't say that only the rich man is in hades. In fact, if he sees Lazarus, then they're probably in the same place, except that the great chasm separates the two sections of hades - the comfort zone and the torment zone.Austinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14883196263628974118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34421675.post-1159380671554318642006-09-27T14:11:00.000-04:002006-09-27T14:11:00.000-04:00Eternal punishment isn't punishment for not being ...Eternal punishment isn't punishment for not being a Christian, it's punishment for the things you have done. The scriptures are extremely consistent on this matter - some punishment will be worse than others. I think it's possible that some people - maybe most - will end up completely destroyed; I haven't confirmed this idea yet, so don't start picking up stones! <BR/><BR/>We are told in Revelation that all who worship the beast and receive his mark will be thrown into the lake of fire where they will be tormented "to the ages of the ages." - that is, forever. We are not told that the other sinners who are thrown in will be there for as long - in fact, the lake of fire is described as the "second death" when those other sinners are mentioned. I don't know what that all means; I haven't figured it out. <BR/><BR/>Jesus and Paul compare our bodies to seeds that must die before growing into plants and producing a crop. Many people we know are completely ignorant of God's ways, but we don't generally think of them as worthy of eternal torment. What will happen to them? Perhaps though they are only seeds of evil now, they will become full grown crops of evil after the resurrection! That would make judgment seem more fair. One thing is for certain - only perfect evil is worthy of perfect punishment - eternal torture. Nothing good will be thrown into Hell - if the unsaved have any ounce of good in them or desire to be good, then one of two things must happen - they will end up overcoming the good in themselves absolutely and be thrown into hell, or they will be redeemed and enter the New Jerusalem. Any who wash and the river that flows through the city to the outside may enter, but those who do not wash do not enter because NOTHING IMPURE WILL EVER ENTER THAT CITY!!! I, for one, am looking forward to living in a city that nothing impure can ever enter.Austinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14883196263628974118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34421675.post-1159375759341436232006-09-27T12:49:00.000-04:002006-09-27T12:49:00.000-04:00Good point, Under_the_Mercy, about casting our cro...Good point, Under_the_Mercy, about casting our crowns. It's kind of like, the more we have in heaven, the more it won't matter. The more we have, the more we will surrender to God (kind of like it should be on this earth: "To whom much is given, much will be required.") <BR/>The gist of what I was saying is that, in our finite, fallen minds, naturally you'd think there'd be some jealousy in heaven. After all, why did the disciple Peter "get to be" Peter? It's almost like a stroke of luck that he was born at that time, raised in that area, and chosen by Jesus. Now he and the other disciples will be the rulers directly under Jesus on the new earth. (I'm saying this in jest, of course.) <BR/>But your point is well taken--jealousy and happiness will not be an issue, although it still gnaws at my mind that some will be more satisfied than others. That leads to what human reason would claim next: that there would be at least some guilt in heaven. I think that there will be...temporarily. When we see God--and faith is finally turned to 100 percent reality, will we all not say--especially in comparing ourselves to others--"why did I not do more for God?"<BR/><BR/>The lack of direction in discussing punishments in hell is much more evident than speaking of rewards in heaven. Because, logically, it seems that, if you receive a low degree of hell, then you've "beaten the system," so to speak. You can turn your back on God, and take pleasure in sin--as long as you're economical in your sins. For instance, Hitler is at least partially guilty for six million plus murders. Jesus says hate is equivalent to murder, but it would be difficult for the Average Joe (if he wasn't a racist) to HATE six million people, much less actually kill them. So, in this Average Joe's mind, he says, "I can hate a bunch of people, and I still won't end up in nearly as bad a place as Hitler--at least as far as murder is concerned. My hell will be more bearable." In another example, a popular basketball player claimed that he had slept with 20,000 women. Jesus said that lust is the equivalent to adultery. But, again, if Average Joe picks carefully, he could avoid even LUSTING after 20,000 women. He says, "I can lust all the time and not approach the number that this other guy committed physical adultery. My hell will be more bearable." <BR/><BR/>The thing is, I don't think anyone in hell or the Lake of Fire--from Satan down to the "best" person not going to heaven--will ever want to hear the word "bearable" uttered throughout eternity.Kingdom Advancerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02599920276578327720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34421675.post-1159366301901789062006-09-27T10:11:00.000-04:002006-09-27T10:11:00.000-04:00I mostly agree, but I dont think you run into any ...I mostly agree, but I dont think you run into any problems with the heaven part. <BR/><BR/>If you think about it when we are in heaven all we will want to do is glorify and know God. The way we will be doing that is by casting our crowns before him. The crowns are our rewards for what we did on earth. If one does not follow God on earth, he will not have as many crowns to cast before God. If everyone was the "same" in heaven there would be no reason to follow God on earth except getting saved.shadowsoflove.blogspot.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06603018185370157452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34421675.post-1159327588688793732006-09-26T23:26:00.000-04:002006-09-26T23:26:00.000-04:00Austin, I'm going to be honest with you: the whole...Austin, I'm going to be honest with you: the whole Sheol/Hades thing is starting to make my head spin. I saw that passage before you mentioned it, but I was trying to decipher it. I was wondering, "Why would Paul use the term 'Hades' when the original author, of course, did not?" <BR/>Perhaps there's not much--or any--difference between Sheol and Hades. But I am sure that both Gehenna/hell and heaven/paradise are being experienced now. So this is what I propose: Hades/Sheol are terms for the grave, correct? So, perhaps those in heaven are also in "Sheol/Hades"--as in, they're dead. In the same way, perhaps those in Gehenna are also in "Sheol/Hades"--they're also dead. <BR/><BR/>My problem is that I just can't get over some New Testament passages that use Hades. Parable or not, why didn't Jesus say "Gehenna" in reference to the rich man rather than "Hades"? What does the Bible mean when it says the "gates of Hades" would not prevail against the church? What does it mean when Jesus says that Capernaum would not be raised to heaven, but "brought down to Hades?" <BR/><BR/>Nevertheless, though, if we can agree on some of the more basic issues, I can't profess to possess divine inspiration of the differences and similarities between Greek, Hebrew, and English words.<BR/><BR/>Under_the_mercy, as I kind of said before, the degrees of hell issue is basically a quagmire. Just by mentioning it, you end up implying that another damned sinner is "not quite as damned" as THAT guy over there standing in the corner. You know what I mean? You also imply, "Well, he'll be in agony, but he won't be in AS BAD OF agony as THAT person." You imply, "Nobody will be happy in hell, but this person will not be AS 'NOT-HAPPY' as that person." <BR/>The problem is, you enter a similar but opposite problem with rewards in heaven. "Boy, THAT saint is going to get a lot of rewards; he's going to be one happy guy in heaven. Yeah, that guy's a Christian, too, but he won't have AS MANY rewards." It kind of sounds like some people will be more happy in heave than others. <BR/><BR/>Here's my conclusion: although all Christians will have done good works, since "Faith without works is dead," and "You will know them by their fruit," we also know that some Christians do more than other Christians, and will receive rewards for that in heaven. In the same way, although we're all guilty of breaking all of the Commandments, some break them many times over. I think it's safe to say we've all broken all of the Commandments more than once, but for some, it's ridiculous. And compare the most prolific of sinners with the legalistic person who doesn't have a true relationship with God. (For instance, the Bible says that "God will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain." Some take it in vain all the time, while others--who are not necessarily Christians--feel queazy about that matter, at least in the foul language sense of blaspheme) There does seem to be some differentiation there, and the Bible seems to make it clear that there is more to Judgment Day then simply cursing everyone not under the blood of Jesus equally. <BR/>So as not to end on that note, I want to reiterate something I've been saying: degrees of hell is not important. You know why? Because we should not focus on telling the unsaved that they should clean up their life so that they can get "a lesser hell." We need to tell them to repent of their sins and embrace the Savior so that they can avoid hell altogether.Kingdom Advancerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02599920276578327720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34421675.post-1159320412139033662006-09-26T21:26:00.000-04:002006-09-26T21:26:00.000-04:00check out http://www.kencollins.com/question-45.ht...check out http://www.kencollins.com/question-45.htm<BR/><BR/>It has some good info. on the Biblical teachings regarding where we go when we die, and where we go when we are resurrected. It's definitely worth taking a look at. <BR/> <BR/>Note: I don't know anything about the guy who wrote the page at that URL, so don't assume that I agree with other things that you might find on that site - I might agree, I might not; I haven't looked.Austinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14883196263628974118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34421675.post-1159318332043068822006-09-26T20:52:00.000-04:002006-09-26T20:52:00.000-04:00Great post, but I dont know about the different le...Great post, but I dont know about the different levels of hell. In james 2:10 we have the verse that says if you are guilty of one sin, you are guilty of all, so unless Christ completely covers your sins wouldn't you would be just as guilty as someone like Hitler, for instance?<BR/><BR/>If you want a to read a quite interesting book on the idea that there are different levels in hell try Dante's "Inferno" (part of "The Divine Comedy"). The translation by Sayers is good.shadowsoflove.blogspot.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06603018185370157452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34421675.post-1159310079607222402006-09-26T18:34:00.000-04:002006-09-26T18:34:00.000-04:00References: All those scriptures are from Rev. 20 ...References: All those scriptures are from Rev. 20 - Rev. 22. Enter the words in the search engine at www.biblegateway.com and you'll find them. I think the version I used was NIV. <BR/><BR/>A while back we discussed whether sheol and hades are the same thing. You said no I think, but I said that hades was the greek surrogate for hebrew sheol. Well, I stumbled upon proof w/o even looking for it! I used Young's Literal Translation (it's useful to our purpose, because it leaves words like sheol and hades untranslated)<BR/><BR/>The proof is found in Hosea 13:14 and 1 Corinthians 15:55. Paul quotes Hosea, written in Hebrew. The verse contains the Hebrew word Sheol, and when Paul writes it down in Greek for the Corinthians, guess what word he uses as Greek for Sheol?! That's right, hades! <BR/><BR/>"...Where [is] thy plague, O death? Where thy destruction, O sheol? ..."<BR/>-Hosea 13:14 <BR/><BR/>"where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?"<BR/>-1 Corinthians 15:55<BR/><BR/>Notice how when Paul translates the Hebrew verse into Greek, he uses hades for sheol.Austinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14883196263628974118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34421675.post-1159239489522043532006-09-25T22:58:00.000-04:002006-09-25T22:58:00.000-04:00Could you get me those Scripture verses? I know t...Could you get me those Scripture verses? I know they're in the Bible, I just like to have the references. <BR/><BR/>As for degrees of hell: I spoke rather uncertainly about it in my article, but then, reading an article simply titled "Hell" by Mart De Haan (his website is www.rbc.org, although I was reading a hard-copy article), he reminded me of things Jesus said, like: <BR/>Matthew 10:15 "Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city." (Look up Matthew 10 to see exactly what Jesus is talking about.)<BR/>Matthew 11:22 "Nevertheless I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you." (ditto) <BR/>Matthew 11:24 "Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you." (") <BR/>Luke 12:47-48 "And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more." (I've actually always wondered whether that parable is referring to a saved person or unsaved.)<BR/>These are just some of the things Mart De Haan mentioned that Jesus said. Of course, as you pointed out, the Bible speaks plenty more about judgment. (I need to find that passage about "our secret thoughts and deeds." I mentioned it in the article but did not put the reference.) <BR/><BR/>I think I should point out that "First comes death, then the judgment." I agree with what you said, but no one will be saved after death--when they've seen God. Where would the faith be in that?<BR/>I also would like to point out something that I ponder: don't you think that the demons (and of course, Satan) will really be punished brutally, since they had seen God and heaven, and worked for God, and yet rebelled? Just a thought. <BR/><BR/>p.s. I'm going to try to write one more part about hell.Kingdom Advancerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02599920276578327720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34421675.post-1159235577422728732006-09-25T21:52:00.000-04:002006-09-25T21:52:00.000-04:00I actually said "know one". I'm losing it! I mea...I actually said "know one". I'm losing it! I meant "no one". ...I've seen people accidentally write <I>know</I> as <I>no</I>, but I've never heard of anyone doing it the other way around!Austinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14883196263628974118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34421675.post-1159235411896879192006-09-25T21:50:00.000-04:002006-09-25T21:50:00.000-04:00I like your point that Judgment Day won't simply b...I like your point that Judgment Day won't simply be, "He's a Christian, she's not. She's a Christian, he's not."<BR/><BR/>Actually, salvation is not by works, but JUDGMENT IS! <BR/><BR/>Regarding "degrees" of hell - all we know is that every time the Bible mentions judgment, it's always directly related to deeds. Not everyone has done the same deeds, so not everyone receives the same judgment. The only punishment common to all sinners is death (Romans 6:23), so any punishment after that will be different for everyone, and yes, the Bible supports this. <BR/><BR/>"and each person was judged according to what he had done." <BR/><BR/>"and I will give to everyone according to what he has done."<BR/><BR/>All sins result in death, but if there's any punishment beyond death (and we've acknowledged that the Bible says there is) then it does not have to be the same for all sinners. Jesus, the apostles, and the entire Old Testament ALWAYS say, when mentioning judgment, that it is dished out according to our deeds. <BR/><BR/>One extremely important point about hell is that NO ONE EVER goes there against their final will. All who truly want the life God offers can have it, but some will refuse. You want support that know one is forced into hell? Okay, here it is:<BR/><BR/>"To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life."Austinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14883196263628974118noreply@blogger.com