Sunday, October 08, 2006

Defending a Creator, Part 4

This post consists of my replies to all of the quoted comments. Of course, another reply was made to this reply, but I haven't answered those arguments, if I will, since this debate seems to be beginning a circular cycle.

I don't have much time, so let me see if I can go through all your statements once more.

"Well, no you didn't as you assumed a beginning. It is also a possibility that the universe, in some form or another, has always existed. I don't know if it has or not, and neither do you."--Beepbeep

By trying to play everything to your advantage, you come out with the disadvantage. Once you say that if the universe had to have a beginning, then so would God. Then you say that the universe--"in some form or another"--might always have existed, implying that much of the universe had a beginning, but the universe itself might not have needed one. You can't play both sides of the argument at the same time.
And by the way, whether "I know" or not is both irrelevant (since you wouldn't believe my proof), and not your place to say.

"I have evidence that you DO have a preconceived belief in a creator, as per your post - " My beliefs do define me. I'm not afraid to say it. Your beliefs don't define you. I know that."--Beepbeep

This suggests that I took my beliefs on a whim. That's not true. My beliefs have grown stronger and stronger over the years, not because I force them to, but because--as I've stated previously--I grow in my relationship with God, my knowledge of the world, the Word, and the way things work, and through my experience, my beliefs are verified. God proves Himself to me every day...not in a way sufficient for you, but that's because your life is predicated on proving He doesn't exist so that you can live your life exactly as you want to.
Yet, I want to re-inforce, my "preconceived belief" is not some blind and deaf belief. Yours is more than mine, for I imagine your worst nightmares have something to do with having no choice but to believe in a Creator, and therefore, you'd do anything to deny His existence. My belief is based on knowledge--which has been built through experience, relationship, and faith. So, in other words, saying I have "preconceived beliefs in God" is like saying that you have "preconceived beliefs that you are a human."

"Well, I agree that points 6-12 are not logical. Now show me that all christians do not think they are logical. Sorry, but you can only speak for yourself, not for all christians; in the same way that I can only speak for myself and not all atheists." --Beepbeep

Consider your points consist of saying that people "imagined their must be an intelligent designer," and then "decided they would call him 'god,'" and then "came to the decision that humans must be made in His image, rather than the more obvious answer,bla,bla,bla."
I don't think you'd have many Christians saying they agree with that. I can't speak for all Christians, but com'on.

"I don't know if any gods exist and neither do you. The difference is that you BELIEVE they exist and I don't."--Beepbeep

First of all, I don't believe in godS! I believe in the One True God.
Secondly, you brought up the "and neither do you" argument again. Well, it sounds as if you KNOW that NOONE CAN KNOW if God or gods exist.
With your stubborness and your self-assumed but not appropriate authority of telling me what I do and do not know, I'm afraid I'm left only with "We'll see." The difference is, I know what we'll see. You don't.

"Also, you seem determined to suggest that if there is an unknown, it proves the existence of a god."--Beepbeep

Actually, I've said more than once that disproving other theories does not prove God for sure, but is part of THE LOGICAL INDUCTIVE METHOD. It's a step forward. (Why are you making me sound like a broken record?)
The reason that I debate this way, and the difference in our views, is that I have [at least one] leg to stand on. I've shown that you have none.

"Your reasoning ability is obviously insufficient as I still don't believe in the existence of any of the gods, including yours."--Beepbeep

I'd like to thank you for calling the One True God "mine." That is one of the nicest things someone can say to me. Perhaps I am [or can be] a "man after God's own heart," like David.
More directly related to your comment, however. It has nothing to do with my reasoning ability. I pointed out that it has everything to do with man's fallen, sinful, finite reasoning ability. That's all of our reasoning abilities, including yours. However, Christians have the truth and the "truth has set them free."

The following is on everything you said about origins and god-belief:

I already pointed out that the reason there are so many gods is not because all religions tried to explain their origins the same--through an intelligent designer. I explained that the reason there are so many gods is because those who hate god must try to explain why they're here by creating a god of their own. You've actually taken the next logical step for unbelievers, to deny the existence of any god, so that you can sin to your heart's desirous extent.

"This is your belief speaking. In the same way that thousands of other peoples and cultures claim that THEIR god that they believe in, did it also."--Beepbeep

This doesn't make all beliefs wrong, any more than thousands of people on the streets are all the same. Because I believe something to be true, does that make my beliefs equal to all other belief-systems because everyone believes their beliefs to be true? No.

"I am sure many of them think the same thing about your god. Because every believer, having picked a god, believes that they have the picked the right one."--Beepbeep

And it's a sad state of affairs that I must ultimately pray about, for I can't do it all myself--in fact, I can do nothing apart from God, although "I can do all things through Christ Who strengthens me." (Philippian 4:13)
Before you start analyzing others beliefs, though, notice that you've made a god out of your own fallen mind, which, as your "god," is telling you that NO OTHER GOD EXISTS.

"Whether I accept evolution or not has nothing to do with the topic. You only want to bring evolution into the topic of discussion because you cannot prove the existence of your god."--Beepbeep

You only want to keep it out of the discussion because you CAN'T PROVE EVOLUTION.
Whether you accept my and others' proofs has nothing to do with whether God is provable. Someone can refuse to believe airplanes exist, if they want, no matter what you say.

"I just don't believe in one more god than you." --Beepbeep

I believe in the only beneficial One to believe in. Plus, you can believe in thousands of other gods. But, if you don't believe in the One True God, all your other beliefs won't help you at all.

"You keep harkening back to this "chance process" as if somehow this will lend credibility to belief in a god. Once again, you have failed to realise that you claim that a god exists. Prove the existence of said god without trying to use another argument as your foil."--Beepbeep

If we had to be designed, then we couldn't have come about by chance. Chance can't design us, and chance can't follow through with our design. Therefore, someone[or something--if you must] must have designed us. You'll probably say again that I'm committing "logical fallacies," but that's a broken and false record, so save your keyboard.

"Once again, it is YOUR claim that I believe nothing. Have I expressed such a thing? No.""Well, I didn't say I believe in "more than nothing" either. I am beginning to think you might have a comprehension problem. "--Beepbeep

Who's got the comprehension problem again? Read your statements twice through, and then you can take your foot out of your mouth. So you don't believe nothing, but you don't believe more than nothing, either? What? Do you believe "less" than nothing?

"Firstly, well, giving god a chance to me means to have faith in the existence of something. I am not prepared to do that. You are.
Not only that, you claim that your faith in something is evidence of the existence of said something. Not my cup of illogic at all."--Beepbeep

Giving God a chance means not approaching everything with the sole purpose of denying the existence of God and the inerrancy of the Bible. That is all.
I did not say that faith is proof of truth; I said that faith in the One True God comes from Divine knowledge of the truth.

" Of course I read it critically. "Cynically" is the descriptor you use, not me. I read all books critically. If I didn't read books critically and with a degree of skepticism, I might be praying to Papa Smurf."--Beepbeep

Describing the way you read things autobiographically does not make your self-analysis accurate. You go into the Bible saying "It's not true. It's not true. It's not true. I refuse to believe it's true. I'll read only commentaries that tell me it's not true. These are the words of men." (And then you repeat these things like a mantra.)

"So, only people who read the bible with a "seeking heart" are ones who will believe it. That is probably true. Those who want to believe it, will believe it regardless of what it says or doesn't say."--Beepbeep

That's not what I meant. You don't read the Bible SEEKING TRUTH. You don't even accept the possibility of the Bible being true. Even when you take the time to read the Bible, you are reading it not to seek possible truth, but to prove the Bible truthless. That is what I meant when I said you need a seeking heart.

"Faith IS blind. So to talk about "blind faith" is redundant. "--Beepbeep

My faith is not blind. If you're saying my beliefs are firm and unwavering, I'm complimented. But my faith is the "assurance of things hoped for," as the Bible says. In other words, I don't have blind hope--I have assurance of my hopes.
Your "faith"--in atheism--is more blind than mine. For you have a lot at stake in your belief: your freedom to sin; your right to your life to do with what you please; your right to your pride and self-sufficiency. Therefore, you will not accept the idea of God because you have so much of your own pleasure riding on your atheism.

These comments are about your comments about theocracy and the secular state:

You're not going to make this about governmental structure, now, are you? Although religion can't be completely separated from politics, I'm not making the case for a theocracy; I'm making the case for conversions. Christianity is not about making a nation a theocracy; it's about making a nation's worth of individuals believers.

I'm not imposing my belief on you with guns or governmental infractions (as some religions do). If you think I am "imposing" my beliefs on others, than you are too sensitive.

"A secular state supports people's right to a religious belief and also their right to no religious belief."--Beepbeep

Have you forgotten the genocides of "secular states" like Communist Russia and the current persecution by "secular states" like Communist China against Christians? I'll admit that a Christian attempt (although it's mostly been Catholic in the past) to spread the faith through violence is wrong--how can you convert someone who you killed? But, you must also admit that "secular states" aren't always so big into the idea of religious freedom.
And, by the way, you can't consider America as an entirely secular state.

"There is always the odd whacko out there that denies the preponderous amount of scientific evidence to the contrary."--Beepbeep

I'll take that as you referring to Evolutionists who cling tightly to the Theory of Evolution, denying "the preponderous amount of scientific evidence to the contrary."

"Religion is evolves or is almost self correcting as well, which is why people don't stone homosexuals to death very often anymore, or burn women at the stake for being witches." --Beepbeep

Yet, Muslims do these types of things incessantly. And there are many other Christian-haters who persecute Christians.
The reason that people are not often hanged or burned for their sins is not because religion has evolved, but because Christianity is less often executed with "zeal without knowledge," as the Bible says. Such acts damage the Faith, and doom forever those guilty of the sins for which they were punished. Christians' job is to save sinners, not eliminate them--unless if "eliminating them" means by washing them in the blood of Christ. Jesus' words to the women caught in adultery--saving her from execution but telling her to "Go and sin no more," should be the Christian's example.
Of course, our society HAS "evolved" and that also causes some of the change.

"I know you have no proof."--Beepbeep

I know you know that you will refuse any evidence I have and would put forth, for you hate God and therefore the very existence of Him. Don't worry, though. Others have this same feeling before getting saved. So don't think there is not hope for you!

"I am using my right, if you make your beliefs public, to question any beliefs that you did not keep private." --Beepbeep

As the Bible says, I am not to hide my "lamp" under a basket. I'm to put it out in the open. The Bible calls for Christians to be "cities on a hill" and "the salt of the earth." I do not despise you asking questions. Especially since the Bible tells me that the wicked will be punished, but if the righteous don't warn them, then their blood will also be on the hands of the righteous. This is my warning to you, and I'm happy to do it: for my sake, for God's sake, and for your sake.

The following comments are about you talking about my "emotional needs":

1.) You can't even explain emotions, although you try to explain away the spirit and soul in terms of emotions. So I find it funny that you would even refer to such a thing.

2.) I'll admit that people do create gods to fill their needs. Not usually emotional, however. The essence of the 2nd Commandment is that people create gods to suit themselves. "My god wouldn't send anybody to hell." Well, of course your god wouldn't, because your god doesn't exist. He's a figment of your imagination.
I could go on with many other mentally created gods, but they generally have the same thing in common: their "gods" want them to be happy; therefore, they can do whatever vulgar, grotesque, sinful, lustful, selfish things they want to, cause "their god" allows it. You take it to the next logical level with your beliefs: you believe in no god, meaning you have absolutely no rules forced on you.

3.) But my question is, why do you think I'd pick the God of the Bible? The One True God certainly does not cater to all my fleshly desires. Quite the opposite. He does not cater to my selfish desires. Quite the opposite again: I have to give up my life to Him. He does not cater to my self-sufficiency: I must depend entirely on Him. He doesn't even cater to all my immediate emotional needs: for sometimes I don't always get the answers immediately.
I believe in God and the Bible because I've seen my need for a Savior, I've seen the certainty of a Creator, I've seen the inerrancy of the Bible, and I've seen the work that God has done in mine and others' lives.

You can see your need for a Savior, too, Beepbeep. If you would listen to your conscience, which you've probably been denying, ignoring, and scarring for many years, you'd realize that you've transgressed God's Holy Law. You've most likely lied (false witness), lusted (the essence of adultery), stolen, coveted(desired to steal), hated (the essence of murder), put other gods or things before god (I know you've done that, and that's the essence of the First and Second Commandments), taken God's name in vain, violated the Sabbath, and more, at least once each.
Now, you've said that you don't believe in evil, but your heart knows evil exists--your conscience knows it. When you transgress the Law, you know you are doing it. You are doing it with your conscience ("con" means "with" and "science" means knowledge: "with knowledge.")
My comments have not been to insult or polarize, but to shine the light of the Gospel in your eyes. I can only pray now that God will do a work in your heart.

~ Kingdom Advancer

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